Random observation

[oloriel]

When I look at some of the political/social discussions on Tumblr, I'm actually happy that LJ is going out of fashion. (Although of course these debates take place on LJ, too -- but you have to join the respective communities, or friend the right people, to get in on them. And the actual heat is elsewhere. On Tumblr, everything is everywhere all the time.)

Maybe I'm just lazy, or too comfortable, or too privileged, or too whatever. But even what little I see through the filter of the few people I follow there just makes me feel tired. I respect people's struggle, but sometimes I feel that in everyone's attempts to make everything better, the only result is an environment where everybody has to watch every word they say lest they be considered sexist (in any direction), racist, abilist*, culturally appropriating, apologistic or whatever. I am not saying that fighting against these attitudes in their actual incarnations isn't worthy. But I do think it can be overdone. Not too mention the whole "more under-privileged than thou" thing going on, or the debate whether you're actually allowed to fight for something that doesn't directly immediately concern you, or whether that means you're appropriating and thereby devaluing the cause, and... oh good grief, this is precisely why I am too lazy most of the time.

I recently read somewhere that our society is currently becoming more and more Jacobinic. Without meaning to appropriate, belittle, water down or otherwise corrupt either the historical or the cultural context of post-revolutionary 18th century France, I think there's some truth to that. I don't like to blame social media for everything, either, but sometimes the atmosphere on Tumblr (as well as in the specific LJ communities, or on general Social Justice sites) really encourages Reign-of-Terror-esque² attitudes.

And that's not what you want, especially when you've actually got a worthy cause, because it's only going to (at best) alienate the people you want to have on your side.

So really, all I want to say is RELAX. AND PICK YOUR BATTLES WISELY.
And more sparingly.

Though I guess that's not a wise thing to say on Tumblr.

- - -
*Yes, I hate the term "ableist". "Fundamentally away from lions"? Whatev. So I use my own. If that means I'm abilist towards the morphologically challenged, so bloody be it.

²Disclaimer: No, I didn't experience the Reign of Terror first-hand. (SURPRISING! I KNOW!) I didn't even grow up in the GDR! I am wholly unqualified! This is more what we lazy people call a hyperbolic metaphor. Possibly slightly polemic, too.

Comments

[meril.livejournal.com]

I've had some really good social justice conversations with friends from LJ. But I need to note that they were mostly one-on-one, with people who know each other, and we're all around the same age (and weren't teenagers to begin with) so there was very little assumption of bad faith.

It's a bit different in RL offline activism (although at least in the US there's always this tendency in leftist politics for eating your own) because, well, offline. You know the people you're working with and there's a shared goal. Too lazy for that stuff now too, that's what college is for.

(Tumblr just makes me wish these kids' parents would just make them GO OUTSIDE and stop spending their entire day on the computer. Or maybe I just ran with a bit more of a politically-aware and prone to discussion crowd, both left and right, in high school.)

[independence1776]

Yes, to all of this. It's why I usually don't reblog political stuff; I would like my personal fandom spaces to be non-SJ-oriented. (Note I'm not saying those conversations shouldn't happen, but more that it seems that SJ has taken over some rather large aspects of some fandoms, and it's tiring. Especially because I get the feeling that some people are just doing it to follow the crowd. Fandom is supposed to be fun, isn't it?)

There's actually one person on Tumblr, the person I would call my oldest friend save that we don't talk anymore. I stopped reading her Tumblr after I got one-- and I never followed her because I didn't want the polemic "whites are evil and racist!!!!" all over my dash. (She's white.) I randomly checked her Tumblr yesterday to find a note that basically said, "I'm not tagging any of the political stuff so you can't block it because it's important and you need to see it." I nearly PMed her and said, "That's entirely the reason I'm not following you. Some people come here so they don't see it and can get a break from the Real World." It's not just teenagers who do it.

And that's not what you want, especially when you've actually got a worthy cause, because it's only going to (at best) alienate the people you want to have on your side.

There are some causes that if I wasn't being constantly "yelled" at, I'd look more into. But the sheer black-and-white, "if you're not with us, you're an enemy" thinking has driven me away. SJ has become nothing more than another excuse to bully people, and it's also unforgiving in that if you say something wrong once, you're blacklisted for eternity. And I'm not interested in participating in that kind of atmosphere.

Closely elated to this: Righteous Wroth Rarely Is.

[fallingtowers.livejournal.com]

THIS.

I completely agree with you, though there are social issues - mostly regarding gender equality - that I really care about. I had to stop reading several feminist sites when this attitude took over. I have a few theories why this happens so easily online. For instance, I honestly believe that many social justice blogs get so many trolling comments (up to and including graphic rape and death threats) that they start circling the wagons and assuming bad faith in every minor diagreement after a while. Combine that with the general echo chamber effect of Internet communities, and well...

Still, even though I can understand why it might happen, it began to tire me - bone-deep. On bad mental health days, it used to set off my anxiety and guilt and negative thoughts, and that was no fun. Now that I'm so much better, I either find it annoying as fuck. Or it is just frustrating. I see people fighting more or less ridiculous debates or alienate others from what I consider worthy causes, on principle, while in the offline world or in mainstream politics, there is so much vile shit going on that actually requires plenty of activism and discussion.

I'm just tired, yes.

[flower-star.livejournal.com]

I totally understand. I'm not on tumblr but what I've seen of that stuff on other sites (Mark Reads/Watches, e.g., and to a lesser extent Fandom Secrets), it's incredibly offputting. The tone employed in these discussions is very nasty, too, which doesn't help at all, and if you point that out, you're shouted down with "tone argument!!!". Though it's probably childish, it frequently makes me not care any more at all or even disagree with them even if they have a good point buried waaaay down deep (probably similar to how a few vegan friends I have posting about how meat eaters are horrible people make me crave steak - yes, I know that's very mature of me).

A friend of mine recently posted something in the same vein: It is more useful to the world that I am cheerful, live creatively, and am responsible for myself. (http://ellenmillion.livejournal.com/1385321.html) That's my decision, too - it's not useful to the world that I go around in a rage all the time. I'm picking my battles, and the SJ stuff is one I definitely don't want to engage in.

(Also, visit the link just for the extraordinarily cute baby pic!)

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I personally blame the heat for me getting In Trouble on Tumblr! But actually you summed it up nicely:

I respect people's struggle, but sometimes I feel that in everyone's attempts to make everything better, the only result is an environment where everybody has to watch every word they say lest they be considered sexist (in any direction), racist, abilist*, culturally appropriating, apologistic or whatever. I am not saying that fighting against these attitudes in their actual incarnations isn't worthy.

Tumblr is a mine field in a way because of how these issues are raised, shortcuts, assumptions of shared vocabulary, which do not necessarily exist. My biggest fights around respect or social justice in fandom in the past were the old anti-slash vs. semi-religious, puritanical interpretations of Law and Customs Among the Eldar. One learned to work around even those.

I have friends on my LJ f-list that span the political spectrum right to left, and every imaginable gradation of sexual preference or lack thereof, and every shade of gender identification and we share a fannish interest and don't often bother one another about the rest. No one dares say anything openly sexist or racist, but in general these questions are not parsed and rehashed to the finest detail. I sure if they were we could find things to fight about. General respect seems to work pretty well.

But on Tumblr it could be anything that ignites a conflagration! I have never had my motives questioned so often or virtually ever had to defend myself at any place or time in my life as a partisan of social justice and human rights. (I actually thought I had an impeccable record on all the hot-button issues, backed up by years of hard work in those areas. That is my reputation in real life.) I have to learn to scan Tumblr with one eye shut and keep my big fat mouth shut as well. But I have been testy this summer; heat, finances, and personal stress have contributed to a lack of patience. I blame myself for everything. I should be quiet and look at the pretty pictures.

[nelyo-russandol.livejournal.com]

I've only stepped into Tumblr a handful of times, but I'm hearing a lot about it recently.

Perhaps it's easy to get radical and even bully others when typing in the delusion of safe anonimity (which doesn't exist, but you can almost believe it does). So I wonder if all these righteous Tumblrites who rant so loudly against any harmless comment have ever spoken up with such vehemence about those issues, face to face, to people who know them by their real name.

[satismagic.livejournal.com]

Me, too. Ever since that kerfuffle that overtook half the internet three years ago ...

[satismagic.livejournal.com]

Amen.

[cowboy-r.livejournal.com]

Yeah.

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

"sometimes I feel that in everyone's attempts to make everything better, the only result is an environment where everybody has to watch every word they say lest they be considered sexist (in any direction), racist, abilist*, culturally appropriating, apologistic or whatever. I am not saying that fighting against these attitudes in their actual incarnations isn't worthy. But I do think it can be overdone. Not too mention the whole "more under-privileged than thou" thing going on, or the debate whether you're actually allowed to fight for something that doesn't directly immediately concern you, or whether that means you're appropriating and thereby devaluing the cause, and... oh good grief, this is precisely why I am too lazy most of the time."

Word. I'm not too lazy; I've been working for social justice all my life, and I'm damn sick of these sanctimonious little 'armchair activists' with their pat slogans and pet theories based on New Age psycho-babble. Most of them have never "fought for change" in their lives, in terms of doing anything that might actually bring about change - they're just posturing, trying to present an image of how they'd like other people to take them to be, when they're not willing to actually live up to it.

The whole 'privilege' thing has been sounding more and more Reign-of-Terroresque to me too - don't know if you saw this post (http://elenbarathi.livejournal.com/496584.html) of mine a while back. The 'disability community' is a whole other thing - there's a strong current of feeling that having a "hidden disability", being able to pass for 'normal', is equivalent to being an 'Uncle Tom'.

As for "gender equality", I'm so tired of having stereotyped assumptions stuck on me by the very people supposedly opposing such assumptions that I'm scarcely willing to even discuss the topic any more. Nor am I willing to trot out my painful experiences to be scrutinized by critical strangers as the price of 'street cred' - any more, the sooner that comes up as the price of 'acceptance', the sooner I am outta there.

'Jacobinic' is a good word for the attitude, and yes, it is highly alienating. Unfortunately, most of these folk don't even know much about the (so-called) Student Revolution of the 1960's, let alone the French Revolution, so they don't see that the Trail of Fail they're charging down so zealously was blazed by others before them.

LOL, one tack to take would be to assert that anyone who owns their own computer has so much Privilege compared to most of the people on Earth that they have no right to either complain about being underprivileged, or to presume to speak for those who really are.That should start some nice flaming futile fights, eh?

"abilist towards the morphologically challenged", right on. I comin' stand on your side! ^^

[http://users.livejournal.com/macalla_/]

Richtig.

Besonders, wenn es darum geht, WIE man etwas sagt. Natürlich sollte man höflich miteinander umgehen, aber das schließt nicht ein, dass ich an ALLE denke, die IRGENDEIN Problem haben könnten.
Wenn ich über Fleisch schreiben will, weil ich es nunmal gerne esse, dann tue ich das verdammt nochmal auch!

[allamistako.livejournal.com]

I only have discussions about politics and religion with VERY good friends or with people I'll never see agin.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

WIE man etwas sagt - und WO man es sagt.

Um bei deinem Bild zu bleiben: Wenn ich in einem Vegetarierforum ein Rezept für Schweinefleisch süß-sauer veröffentliche, dann provoziere ich und verdiene Gegenwind. Scho recht. Wenn ich aber nun in meinem eigenen Journal mein Schweinefleischrezept veröffentliche, dann will ich damit weder Vegetarierern, Veganern, Fruktariern, Juden noch Moslems auf den Schlips treten. Und auch die kulinarische und sonstige Tradition des chinesischen Volkes will ich dadurch keinesfalls verächtlich machen, simplifizieren oder in Abrede stellen. Genauso wird es aber oft dargestellt, und es scheint Leute zu geben, die nichts besseres zu tun haben, als draufzuhauen und die erst zufrieden sind, wenn sich kein Widerstand mehr regt...

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Which is definitely the wisest option.
I don't think discussion as such is bad, though - it's only bad when it's one-sided, inherently biased ("When you don't agree 100%, you're on the side of evil") and when the participants are unwilling to either adapt their view as they get new information, or to agree to disagree in a civilised manner.
And that's what's not happening there - rather, it's a lot of people who share the same interpretation of the same opinion flocking together and stamping down all varying opinion in the name of Social Justice.

At this point, I can honestly say that I've had more fruitful and balanced discussions with Jehova's Witnesses and hardcore Catholics than I've seen in my run-ins with the supposedly liberal, egalitarian Social Justice movement...

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I think "sanctimonious" and "armchair" are the key words here. I don't think that somebody needs a certain age or a certain "street cred" in order to be permitted to lead discussions on topics of social or other justice. But I do think that it would help if people did more than just flock together on the internet to repeat their identical interpretations to each other! Being aware of problematic topics is good, but there can be too much of a good thing. There definitely is when people think being aware and flaming dissenters on the internet equals action. When you're face-to-face with your "opponent", you may more easily remember that they're people, too, rather than faceless minions of evil that it's ok to destroy.

Not sure these people don't know about the Student Revolution etc. - sometimes I suspect they just don't know about the fallout, but they do see themselves as following in the same proud tradition!

The whole matter is so absurdly complicated - who is allowed to complain? Who is allowed to complain on whose behalf? Who is concerned how directly, and can somebody who is not concerned at all be an ally, or is that appropriation again? Etc. etc. etc. I think if one actually wanted to succeed, one should be ready to put aside differences and actually, like, work together, even if one privately thinks that person XYZ has a lot less reason to complain. Instead, there is so much in-movement competition that in the end I get the impression that they're actually enjoying the status quo and don't want to change it, because that would rob them of their reason to feel suppressed and thereby worthy of special attention (not to mention justified to flame others!).

Right on! First time I saw "ableist", I honestly didn't know what it was supposed to mean. "Away from lions"? Huh? I only got it when it popped up in a review of James Cameron's Avatar! XD

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I'm following Tumblr because one person I love dearly has entirely migrated there, so my only chance to read from her regularly is Tumblr. The other Tumblrs I look at mostly result from that constellation.

Good question. In the case of the person whose Tumblr I follow, I know that she would speak up in the real world, if the issue came up. (And afterwards she might run away, but hey, she would speak up first.) With some of the others? I'm not sure. Part of the problem really may be that so many Tumblr users are very young - I mean, I was pretty radically ecologist when I was 15. I understand. But now that I'm twice that age, I also know how embarrassed I feel about some of the opinions I held back then, and about the simplicity of my world view! >_> The advantage we "old people" had when we were young, I think, was that there was a limit to the same-minded people that we interacted with. We just weren't as widely connected as people are today! In school, there were various different groups with different political etc. leanings, so you perforce got into contact with other aspects and with other interpretations of the world and its needs. People who thought different weren't just some nebulous evil force, they were the people who sat next to you in Latin class or who let you copy their math homework when you'd forgotten to do yours! That put things into perspective, a little. And this perspective is absent on Tumblr, because mostly you only see the extreme ends of the spectrum, so you feel wholly justified in your own interpretation of events. As I said, I hate to blame social media because it's such a widely spread cop-out when you don't know what else to blame, but in this case, I really think the specific environment fosters extremism. Not necessarily in its most dramatic form, but definitely in the mindset of people!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Yes, these discussions can be excellent. But they can be fruitless if they always revolve around the same interpretation of something, among the same people. Or if they're involving nothing but pure theory -- reality isn't that pure, and things that look awful on a scale made up of pure theory may, in the face of reality, actually be the best possible compromise.

You know the people you're working with, and you also know those you're working "against" - there isn't some imaginary front of evil, there are just people. While this clearly doesn't stop everybody from hurting people on the other side (alas!), it's somewhat less easy to get sucked into the maelstrom of flaming and crushing "the enemy". On the web, somebody has to delete their blog when the swarm hits. Off the web, real blood is flowing. >_>

(And yeah. I feel bad assuming that all these people are teenaged armchair activists, but I can't help it. It's mostly because I know I was like that when I was a teenager, I suppose - just without such a wide network! Nowadays, I'm slightly embarrassed about my own certainty, because things just aren't that black-and-white in real life. But of course you can't spare those who are teenagers now the same embarrassment. If they ever get out of their high school mindset!)

[fallingtowers.livejournal.com]

At this point, I can honestly say that I've had more fruitful and balanced discussions with Jehova's Witnesses and hardcore Catholics than I've seen in my run-ins with the supposedly liberal, egalitarian Social Justice movement...

In my case, the discussions remind me exactly of debates with certain hardcore Catholics of my acquaintance. It just makes me want to cry, "A plague on both your houses!" and then shut up.

[nelyo-russandol.livejournal.com]

I really think the specific environment fosters extremism.

I so agree. And the false sense of anonimity granted by interacting through a keyboard and screen, and possibly an alias, adds to this effect.