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olorielSo.
Apologies.
They're a funny thing, aren't they?
I mean, in English, it's usually done with "I'm sorry", or just "sorry.
In German, you have pretty much the same: "Es tut mir leid", or "Entschuldigung". "Entschuldigung" is especially nifty, as it doesn't say who has the active part - the one who apologizes, or the apologizee.
"Excuse me" has become rather formal. The same goes for German: "(Bitte) Entschuldigen Sie mich" isn't said in a harmless everyday context. "Entschuldige mich" (that is, using the non-polite form of address - it's like "thou", only not obsolete) is even more rare, and if it is used, it's usually ironic or half-attacking ("Na entschuldige mich, aber das war ja wohl dämlich" - "Well excuse me, but that was really stupid").
We see: In German and English, the one apologizing has the active part nowadays ("I am sorry."). Unless it's a formal context (or a standard formula, and not really heart-felt: "Excuse me, could you tell me the way to the station?").
In the old days, things were different. If you apologized - if you were the one to apologize - you usually had the passive part. The actual act was done by the one you apologized to, the one who had to forgive you: "Forgive me", "Pardon me", "I beg your pardon". See the difference? Today: nominative; back then: dative. (Dative comes from dare, Latin for "to give"). You apologized more often, too, but that's a different topic. At any rate: You used to imply that something had to be given to you. In the modern use, you imply that you give something to the other.
French did not undergo this development (as far as I know)*. "Je m'excuse" is only used in the sense of "I take my leave", not in the everday "I'm sorry " sense. The French still give the active role to the one you apologize to: "Excusez-moi", or "Pardonnez-moi". The person apologizing is the object of the sentence, the one in the dative case, the one who asks that something- namely, forgiveness - is given to him.
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furius pointed out in the comments, there is, of course, "(je suis) desolé(e)". I kind of forgot about that. *g* So there is an active way of apologizing, too. The French didn't quite stay behind the times, after all. (But it's still not "je m'excuse"!)
This was fairly pointless, except it bothered me right now. Apologies! (see? Neutral!)
Because it's not enough to be able to look words up in a dictionary and (hopefully) use them with the correct grammar and syntax. If you want to speak a language, you need to know some idiomatics, too. You really do.
This shouldn't irk me, should it?
It is also interesting that my mother seems to have missed this development - king of. Or, otherwise, thinks it inacceptable. When my brother or I got into mischief as children, "Tut mir leid" would never do (literally, etymologically, it actually means "It hurts me", so that might be the underlying reason: the implication that it hurts the one who did it, and no word about the one they did it to). It had to be "Entschuldigung". At that time, I didn't get the difference and thought my mother was silly. Well, I still do, but I realize that there is a certain difference now. Even though "Entschuldigung", being so very neutral, is actually 'worse' than "Tut mir leid", in my humble opinion.
Oh well.
- - -
*Of course, considering that my assumptions about modern spoken French come from the French editions of the Harry Potter books and three vacations, I may very well be wrong.<(font>
Apologies.
They're a funny thing, aren't they?
I mean, in English, it's usually done with "I'm sorry", or just "sorry.
In German, you have pretty much the same: "Es tut mir leid", or "Entschuldigung". "Entschuldigung" is especially nifty, as it doesn't say who has the active part - the one who apologizes, or the apologizee.
"Excuse me" has become rather formal. The same goes for German: "(Bitte) Entschuldigen Sie mich" isn't said in a harmless everyday context. "Entschuldige mich" (that is, using the non-polite form of address - it's like "thou", only not obsolete) is even more rare, and if it is used, it's usually ironic or half-attacking ("Na entschuldige mich, aber das war ja wohl dämlich" - "Well excuse me, but that was really stupid").
We see: In German and English, the one apologizing has the active part nowadays ("I am sorry."). Unless it's a formal context (or a standard formula, and not really heart-felt: "Excuse me, could you tell me the way to the station?").
In the old days, things were different. If you apologized - if you were the one to apologize - you usually had the passive part. The actual act was done by the one you apologized to, the one who had to forgive you: "Forgive me", "Pardon me", "I beg your pardon". See the difference? Today: nominative; back then: dative. (Dative comes from dare, Latin for "to give"). You apologized more often, too, but that's a different topic. At any rate: You used to imply that something had to be given to you. In the modern use, you imply that you give something to the other.
French did not undergo this development (as far as I know)*. "Je m'excuse" is only used in the sense of "I take my leave", not in the everday "I'm sorry " sense. The French still give the active role to the one you apologize to: "Excusez-moi", or "Pardonnez-moi". The person apologizing is the object of the sentence, the one in the dative case, the one who asks that something- namely, forgiveness - is given to him.
As
furius pointed out in the comments, there is, of course, "(je suis) desolé(e)". I kind of forgot about that. *g* So there is an active way of apologizing, too. The French didn't quite stay behind the times, after all. (But it's still not "je m'excuse"!)This was fairly pointless, except it bothered me right now. Apologies! (see? Neutral!)
Because it's not enough to be able to look words up in a dictionary and (hopefully) use them with the correct grammar and syntax. If you want to speak a language, you need to know some idiomatics, too. You really do.
This shouldn't irk me, should it?
It is also interesting that my mother seems to have missed this development - king of. Or, otherwise, thinks it inacceptable. When my brother or I got into mischief as children, "Tut mir leid" would never do (literally, etymologically, it actually means "It hurts me", so that might be the underlying reason: the implication that it hurts the one who did it, and no word about the one they did it to). It had to be "Entschuldigung". At that time, I didn't get the difference and thought my mother was silly. Well, I still do, but I realize that there is a certain difference now. Even though "Entschuldigung", being so very neutral, is actually 'worse' than "Tut mir leid", in my humble opinion.
Oh well.
- - -
*Of course, considering that my assumptions about modern spoken French come from the French editions of the Harry Potter books and three vacations, I may very well be wrong.<(font>
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no subject
Date: 2006-06-15 10:34 pm (UTC)Denk mal ans Japanische 「申し訳ありません」, sowas gibt's im Deutschen gar nicht. Sag mal jemandem "Mein Handeln ist unentschuldbar" oder sowas, der zeigt dir wahrscheinlich 'nen Vogel o_O
「ごめん下さい」, okay, das ist eine Bitte um Entschuldigung.
「失礼します」 ist natürlich ein bisschen was anderes... Obwohl das irgendwie schon schräg ist, wenn man sich das mal vor Augen führt: "Ich störe mal." Keine direkte Bitte um Entschuldigung oder sowas, aber dafür nennt man gleich das, was man gerne entschuldigt hätte. Sehr merkwürdig...
no subject
Date: 2006-06-15 10:37 pm (UTC)Letztens hatten wir in Historischer Pragmatik einen Satz, der mich sehr ans Japanische erinnert hat: "I desire that you would be pleased to send Isac, if he may be spared". Also quasi eine dreifache Bitte! Fast so schön wie die Rumspielerei mit Kausativ-Passiv...
no subject
Date: 2006-06-15 10:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-06-15 10:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-06-15 11:58 pm (UTC)Of course, when you use the term passively, it puts pressure on the wronged party....It becomes a dialogue rather than an admission and acknowledgement...
no subject
Date: 2006-06-16 05:35 am (UTC)Hm. Or power. ;)
no subject
Date: 2006-06-16 07:10 am (UTC)But the whole topic is interesting. I like it, when you write linguictic stuff.
no subject
Date: 2006-06-16 04:45 pm (UTC)Thank you. :)