7? 9?

[oloriel]

Ok. This is (as usually) silly. So, "Cloud No 9" was on the car radio, and it suddenly made me wonder.

In German, it is Wolke Sieben (literally "cloud seven"). In English, it's "cloud (number) nine."

In German, it is Katzen haben sieben Leben ("cats have seven lives"). In English, they have nine.

Does anyone have further examples, ideas, or explanations why Germans only get seven of nine? [... ok. Very weak joke. Sorry.]

Addendum: What is it about the seven anyway? The world was made in seven days, there's seven dwarves, seven wonders of the world, seven days in a week, seven muses, seven chakras, seven seas... and the German version of the "It was a dark and stormy night, and the skipper said to the mate..." story goes Es war einmal ein Mann, der hatte sieben Söhne... ("There was a man who had seven sons...") Oh, the conspiracy theories!

Edit: Ok, the German cloud seven could be explained via an alternative version of the phrase: auf Wolke Sieben sein ("to be on cloud seven") is used synonymously with im siebten Himmel sein ("to be in seventh heaven"). The seventh heaven is apparently an islamic thing: The place of final transfiguration, i.e. the place where everybody wants to end up. A-hah! Now we only need to know where cloud nine comes from.

Comments

[rahja.livejournal.com]

*sing* Vater Feanor...Vater Feanor...sieben Söhne hatte Vater Feanor...*wegrenn*

[ladyelleth.livejournal.com]

In German, it is Katzen haben sieben Leben ("cats have seven lives"). In English, they have nine.


Hm... ich hab ehrlich gesagt beides schon gehört, die Version mit den neun Leben allerdings häufiger...

Ansonsten, wie immer liefert Wiki ein paar Theorien: Klickst du hier (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieben). Andererseits hast du die Erklärung schon selbst geleistet... There was a man who had seven sons... - und er war bestimmt in der Lage, ein paar Werke hinreichend zu manipulieren... *cough*

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Die neun Leben sind aber neuer, die sieben sind die klassische Version hierzulange. Was sich auch aus der Sprachmelodie ergibt - Katzen haben sieben Leben ist einfach rhythmischer als mit der einsilbigen neun.

[ladyelleth.livejournal.com]

Da sprichst du wahr. Und da mir im Moment keine sinnvollen Kommentare mehr einfallen wollen... *schleich*.

[slightly-mad.livejournal.com]

And of course the seventh son of a seventh son is granted special powers by the Gods.

however there are nine muses: Caliope, Clio, Erato, Euterpe, Melpomene, Thalia, Urania, Polyhymnia and Terpsichore.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

True. I fail. *g* But there we go, seven or nine, again! ;)

[etoilepb.livejournal.com]

There have been actual research studies done about why things are in three, seven, or nine traditionally in lots of cultures.

That said, I have no idea why all your cats and clouds are short-lived. :-P

[allamistako.livejournal.com]

Genauer genommen, oh verrückte Sprachenfetischistin, ist es so, das mir die einteilung in 7 Himmel und Neun Höllen zum ersten mal bei Dante's "Göttliche Komödie" auffiel.

Oh, und danke für die Karte. Werde mich revancieren :)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Das mag ja sein, aber älter als die Göttliche Komödie ist der Islam ja denn doch. Auch wenn die sieben Himmel und neun Höllen bestimmt auch in der jüdischen oder christlichen Tradition vorher schon vorkamen.

Aber das ist natürlich ein interessanter Punkt - sind deutsche Katzen positiver belegt als englische, weil sie die himmlische, nicht die höllische Zahl an Leben haben? Hmmmm!

Freut mich, wo ich doch so gerne Post kriege! :)

[allamistako.livejournal.com]

Habe gerade nachgeschlagen - die vorstellung von 7 himmel und 9 höllen entspringt der Kabbalah, also der jüdischen mystik. Möglicherweise stammt diese vorstellung allerdings aus dem Zoroastrischem...

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Ieh, geh mir weg mit Zarathustra! ;) *philokurs-opfer*

Ne, in was für tiefe mystische Dinge uns so eine einfache Redensart führen kann! Aber für die Wolke neun haben wir immer noch keine Erklärung, oder?

[allamistako.livejournal.com]

Drei als heilige Zahl, und 9 als 3 x 3?

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Möglich, ja... aber heilig ist ja nicht zwingend gleich glückselig. ;)

[lyotto.livejournal.com]

Seven and nine are both holy numbers, to some degree. That is to say, they have some significance or another in Christian theology. Seven is rather obvious, as there are so many sevens in the Bible and Christianity - seven days, seven seals, seven trumpets, seven parables, seven promises, seven eternals, seven sins, seven virtues, etc., etc. As for nine, all I know for certain is that there are nine gifts of the spirit: wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discerning of spirits, speech in tongues, and interpretation of tongues. Something like that.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

*nods* I know... what puzzles me is why exactly it's seven in one, but nine in another language. There must be some reason, right? ;)

[lyotto.livejournal.com]

"The phrase to be on cloud nine, meaning that one was blissfully happy, started life in the United States and has been widely known there since the 1950s; it's since spread worldwide. It's said to have been popularised by the Johnny Dollar radio show of that period, in which every time the hero was knocked unconscious he was transported to Cloud Nine. But that wasn't the origin of the phrase. It's been around since the 1930s, though early examples show a lot of numerical variability, with the cloud sometimes being as low as number seven or eight or as high as thirty-nine, though seven and nine were most common.

These discrepancies make me suspect the usual explanation of its origin, which is that it comes from the US Weather Bureau. The story is that this organisation describes (or once described) clouds by an arithmetic sequence. Level Nine was the very highest cumulonimbus, which can reach 30,000 or 40,000 feet and appear as glorious white mountains in the sky. So if you were on cloud nine you were at the very peak of existence.

In Danish the expression with the same meaning is called "Den syvende Himmel". To be in the seventh Heaven is to be at the top of the world."

You got me curious. I found it here (http://theory.lcs.mit.edu/~edemaine/thok/cloud9.html) and that seems to be the popular answer to the cloud question. Apparently no two sources can agree on the origins of the cats' lives, though, aside from a lot of people believing it comes from Egypt.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Oooooh, cool! That explains the cloud thing, anyway. Thank you!

The Egypt theory has been disputed too, though. The basic origin is clear - cats usually falling on their feet, etc etc - but the allotment of the numbers seems to be a later thing.

Perhaps it really just is language melody. KaTZEN haBEN sieBEN LeBEN (with every syllable pronounced) is of course more rhythmic than KaTZEN haBEN NEUN LeBEN. In Dutch, nine is negen, so it works with nine as well, and sure enough, they use nine. And in English? Well, "cats", "have" and "lives" are all one-syllable words in Modern English, so...

[lyotto.livejournal.com]

People like rhythm. Rhythmic sayings are the ones that stick in your mind. To add to your examples, it works in Czech, too, where a lot of modern idioms are taken from either English or German. Traditionally, it's nine lives. "Kočka má devět životů." It could just as easily be seven (sedm) in place of nine (devět) without disturbing the count of syllables, as both words are two syllables long, but the s starts to break the rhythm formed by the consonants and the dm, basically pronounced doom, is less melodic than vět, pronounced vyeht.