Götter mit Migrationshintergrund

[oloriel]

So yesterday, I had an epiphany while reading an essay.

Backstory time!
I did read the Edda at some point, but it was a kiddy version and didn't have annotations so, for instance, you'd read a word like "Tyrkland" and nobody would tell you what "Tyrkland" is. I mean, today I look at the word and see certain parallels to a modern country named "Turkey", but back in those days, I apparently didn't make that connection? Or I forgot about it long ago.

Anyway. So Odin and his brady bunch of Æsir immigrated into the Skandinavian (or broader Germanic, really) world from somewhere south, namely, Tyrkland, yes? MAN, THOSE ARE SOME WELL-INTEGRATED IMMIGRANT WORKERS. (I'm sorry I could not resist!) Of course, back in those days, "Tyrkland" wasn't in fact Turkey but somewhere in Central Asia and --
oh God.
Æsir.
Asia.
As---
Does that mean that etymologically, Asia and Asgard might be the same word? DOES IT?
LAUGHING MY ASS OFF FOREVER.

[/things that amuse me]

(The etymology dictionaries tell me stuff about one being speculated to stem from Akkadian asu, meaning "to rise", "to go forth", and the other originating from PIE *ansu-, "spirit", related to Sanskrit asu. As there is no PIE root given for Akkadian asu, so there might or might not be a link between the two, this is spectacularly unhelpful. :P OH WELL IT'S A VALID THEORY AND I'M LEAVING IT THERE.)

Either way, this bit of knowledge makes those Neonazi groups who invoke them good old "Germanic" gods look really pretty stupid, doesn't it? I mean, even more stupid.

Comments

[furius.livejournal.com]

I've never been very well-informed about Norse myths, beyond..you know, the myths as random stories. So Aesir's not a word with...Germanic or Nordic roots? Akkadian or Sanskrit...that's really further East than I would expect 0_o

Is there an approx. date/era for this migration or linguistic evolution?

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

No, the thing is, according to the myths themselves, the Norse Gods came North from the South, because down in Tyrkland, Odin dreamed that he'd be revered up North, so he decided to move there. The further North they came, the more mysterious and special they became and the more amazing stories were told about them, so that worked out all right. And according to the Edda, Odin ordered everything "as it used to be in Troy", which is also pretty clear Asia Minor reference.
Quoth Snorri Sturluson.

Of course, considering all the migration way back, and the (presumably) Southern roots of Humanity In General, this might well reflect something that really happened, just with humans instead of (demi-)gods. And of course, there are parallels all over various pantheons. XD

Linguistically, the word Æsir as such originates from Germanic ansuz; but the point is, where does that come from, in Proto-Indo-European terms? (The "Indo" bit is where Sanskrit starts to be relevant. ;)) And does it meet at some point with an Akkadian descendant of the same root? In PIE terms, the *ansu "spirit" concept is supposedly related to "give birth" and "breathe forth", at which point a link to "rise" and "go forth" does not seem impossible.

[furius.livejournal.com]

I think I remember being puzzled by this bit! I had never read the Edda, just retellings in different "collected myths" books XD I seem to recall some sort of Norse vs. Greek god story, but maybe that was someone's crossover fanfic than a real myth (or rather, more ancient fanfic) or maybe I'm misremembering. This is really all quite fascinating. Of course everything in Western Civ came out of Asia Minor, so to speak, but that the Norse language retains the evidence is kind of lovely to know.

Too much readings of Romans vs. Gauls somehow gave me the impression, which is obviously what the ancient writers wished, of how different they were from each other- not accounting for, of course, histories even further back.

I do recall reading something about the parallels between Roman/Greek and Anglo-Saxons peoples in Middle-earth as Gondorians and Rohirrirm, where they were "distantly" related, but still related...

Well, isn't the whole idea and sound of breath/giving breathe/life in the Hebrew name for God? I thought it was the most poetic thing when I learned about it in college.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Language tends to retain evidence of loads of things - linguistic development, after all, rarely adhers to a strict agenda. I'm more amazed that it's explicit in the myth!

Well, the Gauls are Celts - different kettle of fish again. (Although there also were Celts - the Galatians down in Turkey, of course.) But yes, even today we sometimes read the "original sources" a bit too uncritically without remembering that the ancient history writers wrote what they thought their audience needed to read.

Well, isn't the whole idea and sound of breath/giving breathe/life in the Hebrew name for God?
Which of the many? ;)

[furius.livejournal.com]

Which of the many? ;)
YHWH of course ;) Apparently it's suppose to be pronounced like a breath?

[barbardin.livejournal.com]

Du kriegst ein mad linguist - T-Shirt zum Geburtstag. :P
Aber im Ernst, ich lese das immer sehr gerne und mit Spannung.
Ich bin leider selbst sträflich uninformiert in Sachen Mythen.

[samtyr.livejournal.com]

I just rediscovered my copies of the Eddas (finally!), so I will be interested in rereading that part again.

[jokergirl.livejournal.com]

If asu- means "to rise", wouldn't it rather stand to reason that Asia has the same etymological meaning as "orient" (east, rising sun)? Aesir might still have the same root ("die Erhabenen" might be a good translation?) but not be related, then.

;)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

If asu- means "to rise", wouldn't it rather stand to reason that Asia has the same etymological meaning as "orient"

That's exactly the reasoning behind the speculation, yes.

Aesir might still have the same root but not be related, then.


If somebody else and I have the same ancestor, then we are related.
If two words have the same root, however distantly, they are likewise related. That's the whole point. XD

[elenbarathi.livejournal.com]

It would be hard for those Neonazi groups to look much more stupid than they already look, unless they went in for dorky Halloween costumes like the Ku Klux Klan. Hitler's whole 'Aryan' thing was based on the Aryan Invasion Myth (http://archaeology.about.com/od/indusrivercivilizations/a/aryans.htm), which pretty clearly took place in Central Asia. Apparently the Turkic-speaking peoples of Central Asia tended a lot more to the Caucasian persuasion before the Mongol invasion changed the gene pool of the whole area.

The Mongols must totally piss off the Nazis: this invincible, incredibly-disciplined band of short, dark, black-haired slanty-eyed guys who made such short work of the Rus; the only people who ever successfully invaded Russia in winter, because they'd lived outdoors in weather just as bad all their lives. The only thing that ever stopped the Mongols was their own internal politics; if Genghis Khan had lived another ten years, they'd have taken Europe the same way they took China and Khwaresmia.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly, to all of this. (Yay, I managed a brief answer!)

[independence1776]

Yet one more reason why I need to get my hands on the Norse myths. (My public library doesn't have them. The best they have is excerpts in "Medieval Literature for Tolkien Fans" or something like that. The one version I found in the bookstore was translated in 1960-something, and is written in such a way that I'd need a translation for the translation. >.<)

[naurring.livejournal.com]

Auf Deutsch kann man es fast noch deutlicher machen: Asen. Asien.
Tolle Erkenntnis, und ich fürchte, ich denk jetzt den Rest der Nacht drüber nach. *seufz* Etymologie ist doch zu schön.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Ja, wenn ich zu dem Zeitpunkt Englisch gedacht hätte, wär mir die Parallele wohl auch nicht so schnell aufgefallen. XD