If you kindle Worlds, will they burn up?

[oloriel]

Sweet Eru, we've known about Kindle Worlds (I'm linking to Dawn's summary because it's critical but reasonable; I haven't read everything on the matter yet, and doubt I want to) for ONE DAY, and I'm already sick of the matter - to be precise, of the fannish reactions of the alarmist and rabble-rousing sort.

It has been mentioned that this might open an entire legal can of worms. I question the validity of that concern. People asking that question seem to have missed the point where Amazon acquired licenses from the authors or other copyright-holders. I repeat: They bought licenses. The authors agreed, for whatever reason, to make it legal for Amazon to publish other people's fanfiction of their works. They may not like the results of that agreement (but then, the Kindle Worlds rules and terms limit the field of what they might not like, so the only thorny matter that remains is that of quality and taste), but they've given it. Maybe they needed the money. Or they wanted to endear themselves to their fanbases. Or they're really just altruistic and think "Hey, isn't it awesome that people love our story so much that they spend time writing stories based on it? Let's reward that!" (Hey, a girl can dream.)
At any rate, unlike the silly dude who thought he could cash in on LotrFanFiction.net last year (two years ago? Whenever. Time flies!), I am pretty sure that Amazon is covering their bases as far as legal issues are concerned. No need to lose any sleep over that, I'd say. (And if you're worrying instead that Amazon might sue non-profit fanpages, I think the OTW is the right place to take your concerns to?) As Dawn says, since the original rights holders are on-board, the idea that the project will draw negative scrutiny to fandom in general is not a concern. So please, Don't Panic.

Dawn also mentions the question of "morality" that some fans have apparently raised, concerning "making money with fanfic". Dawn says Would that all artists with talent could make a living–or even part of a living–on their work. Word. Besides, making money with derivative works isn't new anyway. Series like Star Wars and Star Trek have sparked a shitload of bestselling (licensed) derivative novels. Scarlett or Rhett Butler's People are basically Gone with the Wind fanfiction - with a license. Jasper Fforde has made a lot of money with what is ultimately the crackiest crossover AU fanfic that ever cracked*, the Thursday Next series, without even asking the original rights holders (granted, Jane Austen, Charlotte Brontë et alia probably wouldn't have said much anyway). Speaking of Jane Austen, what about Pride and Prejudice and Zombies?
In conclusion, if there be anything ammoral about making money with derivative fiction, you're coming a couple of decades - wait, no, centuries in fact - too late. It is already happening. Authors have been agreeing to this for years, unless they're dead and didn't even have a chance to say no. The only new idea seems to be that these licenses are no longer just given to established authors for a specific work, but to anyone willing to write canon-compliant, G- or PG- rated, straightforward fanfiction in the relevant fandoms.

Do the terms suck?
Sure. But then, you don't have to agree to them. You can continue to publish your fanfic on one of the many established (or even new) fanfic sites. You won't get any money for them, but then, that may not be your priority. Or you might (probably rightly) assume that nobody wants to make a movie out of your fanfic, anyway, so it doesn't matter whether you have the rights or Amazon has them... Finally, there's the old-fashioned and very rocky road of trying to obtain a license directly. (Depending on your fandom, that may be impossible or surprisingly easy?) Or you could file off the serial numbers so your fanfic passes as original -- see The Sword of Shannara or, more recently, 50 Shades of Grey to see how to do it. (I can't believe I just recommended people to look at 50 Shades of Grey. See what you made me do!)

What does that mean for me?
Virtually nothing, at the moment. I'm not in the fandoms for which Amazon has acquired licenses, nor likely to be. This is, of course, pure speculation on my part, but I suspect that Christopher Tolkien won't sell Amazon or any platform such a license. (If he did, I'd actually be delighted - whether or not I'd ever make use of it.) Other popular authors might be smart enough to realise that they don't need a middleman, and might instead create licensed platforms where authors can upload pay-per-click fanfic for their works, with or without an editorial/censorship board. (That's what I'd see J.K.Rowling doing - again, purely speculatively.)
Meanwhile, for AU, crack, crossover, adult het, slash, BDSM or other "difficult" genres, as well as for fanfic authors who don't want to sell their soul "All Rights" to Amazon... there still are the good old fanfiction archives that won't allow you to make money, but may still get you read (and, hopefully, reviewed).

And who knows, Dawn might be right (yet again ;)): Maybe fanfic will become more widely accepted/acceptable with this new development.
Or then, it might not.

At any rate, I'm pretty unworried - but sort of frustrated by the kneejerk reactions I've been reading all of yesterday and some of today. (If you feel the same, I'm sorry to have added to your frustration.)
I'm not deactivating comments on this, so you can tell me your opinion on this matter; but I may not respond. That won't mean that I'm ignoring you, or that I'm not taking your (possibly deviating ;)) opinion seriously, or whatever -- it just means that I'm already tired of the discussion, so while I felt the need to state that here, I just can't be bothered to take it any further.

You may now go on with your lives. ;)


- - -
*Which sort of makes it hysterically absurd that he initially was opposed to people writing fanfic. DUDE. DUDE!

Comments

[spiced-wine.livejournal.com]

Is equally unbothered. I shall just go on with what I was doing.

[http://users.livejournal.com/macalla_/]

Meine Welt bricht gerade zusammen ... 50 Shades in DEINEM LJ!!! Ich bin grade zutiefst schockiert!

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Ich habe schon immer gefürchtet, dass ich mein übliches hohes Niveau (haha) nicht auf Dauer würde halten können. ;)

[satismagic.livejournal.com]

Word, word, word, word, word.

I cannot express emphatically enough how much I agree with you.

(Also, did you get my mail? *pleading look*)

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

*bows* Pleased to be of service.

(Da war noch was... *schäm* Hab geantwortet!)

[chili-das-schaf.livejournal.com]

I am a) toally unfazed with Fanfiction (unless it's badfic I can tear to bits and b) think Fanfiction authors overestimate their influence and importance outside of the geek bubble way, WAY too much and c) doubt it will change anything majorly, either in one or the other direction.

So my reaction was: meh...? I think cleolinda raised a few good points, for example "At heart, it seems like another attempt to co-opt a creative community without understanding how it works in the first place."

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Well, there are actual, honest-to-God professional authors who seem to overestimate the influence and importance of fanfiction authors in that they consider them a risk to their franchise (*coughcough*AnneRice*coughcough*GRRM*coughcough*), so it's not like "we're" making that up. And then, you regularly find people who think that you can make a nice bit of money on fanfiction - most recently, Amazon...? - so again, not sure whether it's the fanfic authors who overestimate anything. Fanfic authors generally try to fly under the radar and not influence anything, aside perhaps from other fans' interpretation of the fandom?
I do agree, though, that it likely won't change anything in any major way.

[chili-das-schaf.livejournal.com]

Well, to be honest? They have all rights to do that because it can happen, as you see with Shades of Grey. The author did not even hide that it is just a thinly veiled Twilight fanfic and raked in the money. No matter how much I dislike Stephenie Meyer, that was simply intellectual theft and I can understand when people keep their lids closed on that issue from the start and somewhere you have to draw the line. And I think cleolinda is right when she says that is precisely what this move of Amazon might be inspired by - not to prevent a second Shades of Grey but to profit from it.

IDK about GRRM's stance on fanfic but he can't be that strict because he licensed a whole roleplaygame system in his world.

With overestimation I mean that fandom tends to think people outside of fandom/internet give a toss. Most everyday people don't even know the word "fanfiction". Shades of Grey became popular because of the sex, not because it's a fanfic. Go ask the housewives that buy the book in the Hürth Thalia branch about fanfiction. You'll only get puzzled looks.

The great majority of people doesn't give a damn about fanfic and so this will have no big consequences out there. One or two fanfic authors of the myriads that are out there might get lucky, Amazon might get a little bit of pocket money. And that's all. Everything else stays just as it was.

[ladyelleth.livejournal.com]

Not sure what you have been reading, but it sounds like some people did a lot of doomsday predicting. Not that I'm terribly surpised, really, but I agree that it's most likely not a threat per se - especially not the fic that is submitted to Amazon's offer, and while the thought crossed my mind that they may be going after un-licensed fic did cross my mind, that seems terribly stupid and counter-intuitive on second glance regarding the target audience). Ergo, possible worst-case there, the fic may end up being rejected

Maybe fanfic will become more widely accepted/acceptable with this new development. Yes! That was my initial idea (and hope) as well. To be quite honest I'm still boggling that there still are people who insist that fanfic is immoral (though this may give more ammunition to the "you can't write fic unless it's licensed" position).

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Alternative worst-case scenario (that I didn't even think of initially): The fic ends up a smash hit; Amazon holds all the rights, including (presumably - "all" is pretty all-encompassing?) translation rights or movie rights, so while you continue to get your meagre click-per-read income via the original Kindle Worlds version of your fanfic, Amazon (or whoever they sell the rights to) legally get all the money for foreign language editions and the big Hollywood blockbuster based on your fanfic.
I agree that this scenario is a lot less likely than rejection, though. ^^

Well, that position exists and is popular anyway. So I really can't be bothered to worry about more or less ammunition!

[meril.livejournal.com]

I have to agree with John Scalzi on this about it being a bad deal for the writer, not because it's fanfic, but because the work-for-hire terms on Kindle Worlds are so bad. But the contract, as it is, is out there; if you want it so bad, you know exactly what you are signing up for. But there's nothing extraordinary about this project. It's basically writing non-canonical tie-ins without an advance to the author. The three settings you can write in are all Alloy Entertainment-produced book/TV show settings--they're the 21st century equivalent to the company that produced the Nancy Drew and Hardy Boys books. They know how to handle a bunch of different people working on their intellectual property. It's what they do.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Yep, and yep. ^^

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

Ah Meril said what I wanted to say too. Unlike Keith Mander and Fanlib, Amazon surely got their bases covered and those of the original copyright holders. It is limited to the States only so far, so *shrugs*

I am just wildly curious how many people will sign up with their fandom name or cast aside that name and sign up for that deal with their real name. Because don't forget, writing under a fandom name means that you can write about darker and deeper desires without having your boss/spouse/family to know.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I think "darker and deeper desires" aren't part of the parcel anyway. I would hope that people have the sense to use a nom-de-plume (and ideally, not their fandom handle if they normally write darker things!) XD! But maybe if they sign up under such rotten terms, maybe they don't have much sense to begin with? *ducks*

[pandemonium-213.livejournal.com]

I am pretty sure that Amazon is covering their bases as far as legal issues are concerned.

First, the disclaimer: none of this will affect me in any kind of significant manner.

I am less sanguine about the legalities issue around copyright and remain unconvinced that Amazon's is watertight. Having witnessed some really bloody battles in patent space, both near and far, I never underestimate the tiny pebbles determined litagators can overturn to reveal all sorts of wriggling nastiness.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

I agree that Amazon's plans are probably not "watertight" (although I'm sure they've got a team of expensive lawyers; whether or not they want to send them out in defense of some poor Kindle Worlds "fanficcer" is a different kettle, of course). I do expect they'll have done more homework than, say, Keith Manders (good grief, the words this debate is making me use!)...

[dawn_felagund]

Well said. A few clumps of my hair may have been yanked from my head in frustration yesterday too. ;) My HL post is so moderate in tone because it was written at work, where it is very hard to access social media, so I was flying blind save what I could read on email groups and private blogs.

I do want to say that I understand fans feeling hand-shy about for-profit fandom, since every instance to this date has been skeevy and turned out Not Well for us (although, in the long run, we've booted them out of the picture like the epic heroes that we are! ;) However, it was terribly, terribly obvious yesterday that people either hadn't read* the press release and preliminary guidelines, or they had done so while latching on only to the words they wanted to see/hear.

* Which I can believe. When, one B2MeM, I was asked with a straight face what playing bingo had to do with a fanfic project, I lost all hope that people read guidelines before reacting to them.

The "legal concerns" having been thoroughly debunked, now the trope is that authorized fanfic will result in C&D letters to authors and archives of the unauthorized stuff. I'm actually thinking of writing another post to debunk that one.

The other trope is the rights issue, which you bring up here. randy_o has made the excellent point that similar terms are obtained for authorized tie-in novels, so while the pay for Kindle Worlds is lower than the pay for other self-published works on that platform (which could mean that fanfic isn't taken as seriously or could be explained by the licenses that I imagine are prohibitively expensive), the terms are on par for the industry. My feeling is that as long as the terms are clear and well-defined--"all rights," for example, should be defined, as someone unfamiliar with publishing fiction is unlikely to get what it means--then writers should be trusted to make the best decisions for their work. I don't like the paternalistic feel that, because I have decided never to sign a contract buy all rights, someone else cannot make the equally informed decision to do otherwise.

I suppose my feeling always comes down to: there are plenty of awful things going on in any corner of the world at any given time--including fandom, including probably Kindle Worlds--so why invent more out of ignorance or simply to stir the pot? If there are concerns with Kindle Worlds--like the rights issues that many besides me have addressed--then bring them forward, but I don't get the desire to clutter that discussion with so much white noise.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

Well said, too! There isn't really anything I could add to what you've said (at least not off the top of my head ;)) so instead of creating more white noise, I'll just nod and say "Yep, what you said". :) But please do write another post to debunk that trope - your arguments in the comments to your original post may get lost/never read...

However, it was terribly, terribly obvious yesterday that people either hadn't read* the press release and preliminary guidelines, or they had done so while latching on only to the words they wanted to see/hear.

You think? >_>

[pandemonium-213.livejournal.com]

The "legal concerns" having been thoroughly debunked, now the trope is that authorized fanfic will result in C&D letters to authors and archives of the unauthorized stuff. I'm actually thinking of writing another post to debunk that one.


"Thoroughly debunked?" Perhaps on the aspect that you cite. I think that's a given that this would not be an issue. What I am less certain about is, for those writers who participate in Amazon's business plan, that they have solid legal protection, despite agreements with authors holding copyright who sign off on this venture. Don't underestimate what a determined litigator can achieve and the loopholes they can uncover.

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

The "legal concerns" having been thoroughly debunked, now the trope is that authorized fanfic will result in C&D letters to authors and archives of the unauthorized stuff. I'm actually thinking of writing another post to debunk that one.

Is there a link to this debunking thing, because I haven't seen it. :) Pretty please?

[lindahoyland.livejournal.com]

Very well said!

[heartofoshun.livejournal.com]

I question the validity of that concern. People asking that question seem to have missed the point where Amazon acquired licenses from the authors or other copyright-holders. I repeat: They bought licenses.

That was never my legal concern--I was quite aware it was a joint project between the copyright=holders and Kindle Worlds, with the evil genuis of Alloy book-packaging behind it--which is notorious for being exploitative of writers in their TV-to-book industry.

My legal concern was that legitimate publishers of fiction, who heretofore have ignored fanfiction might get stirred up over this. Those publishers might feel pressure. The whole online reading thing already as caught them out, they were slow to begin e-book marketing, and they are still struggling with how to handle the change of focus. The concept might seem to them to threaten to change relations which were set and chugging along with them exhibiting a silent but slightly greater tolerance for fanfiction in general, despite the occasional hysterical outburst.

[oloriel.livejournal.com]

OK, I get your point, but I cannot honestly believe this will become a big issue. I guess we'll have to wait and see, and if I'm wrong, I'll be sorry? ;)

[rhapsody11.livejournal.com]

You know... some publishers will remain dinosaurs. Maybe what could happen is that publishers are forced to rethink their business models regarding e-publishing, but I wouldn't be so worried what publishers will do.

[randy-o.livejournal.com]

That's the 'don't rock the boat' issue, which is kind of separate from the cr@ppy deal a fanfic author who signs up for this will be getting in terms of future rights to their own content.

Not rocking the boat has some validity. It's like holding still in the bushes so the T Rex doesn't see you. And then some idiot right next to you sticks his head up and starts yelling, "Profit!"