The lyf so short

Tolkein said the Elves were biologically human? Huh. Well, the professor wasn't a biologist, after all.

To me, (and I am grounded in biology, if not actually a biologist) it would make more sense if they were in the Homo genus, but not the species Homo Sapiens. We have limited examples of cross-breeding (though the one half-elf I can think of off the top of my head did have a daughter, so he wasn't a mule... though she didn't have children with her human husband, if I remember correctly).

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Basically, yes:
There are certain things in this world [Middle-earth] that have to be accepted as ‘facts’. The existence of Elves: that is of a race of beings closely akin to Men, so closely indeed that they must be regarded as physically (or biologically) simply branches of the same race.
(HoMe Vol. X)

Elves and Men are represented as biologically akin in this ‘history’, because Elves are certain aspects of Men and their talents and desires, incarnated in my little world. [...]
Elves and Men are evidently in biological terms one race, or they could not breed and produce fertile offspring – even as a rare event:
(Letter 153)

Biologist or not, as far as Middle-earth is concerned, he's the guy who makes the rules. ;)
But here's a biologist's take on the matter. (http://professor-thu.tumblr.com/post/51978583882/elves-and-humans-on-speciation-of-the-firstborn-and)

Elven Lúthien has a son with mortal Beren (Dior), and that son has a daughter (Elwing) and two sons (Eluréd and Elurín, who die as children, so we can't know whether they would've bred succesfully). Elwing, though, has two sons (Elrond and Elros), who have a whole shitload of offspring (especially Elros, since he chooses the mortal road). Elven Idril has a son with mortal Tuor (Eärendil), who with Elwing fathers Elrond and Elros. I'm not sure whether Aragorn and Arwen have grand-children, but since their respective lines have hitherto not have had any trouble producing fertile offspring, it's not unlikely.
Not sure what half-elf you're referring to?

Edited Date: 2013-06-03 02:43 pm (UTC)

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I was thinking of Elrond. I'd forgotten (if I ever knew) that Aragorn and Arwen had children.

And I wasn't doubting you, I was just commenting that, were I the professor, I'd've done it differently. 8)

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One son (Eldarion) and several daughters (whose names we do not know).

Hah! Me too! (In fact, in the fantasy novel I did start (and will never finish, presumably), I made it very clear that in the rare cases when "Elves" (by another name) and humans interbred, they produced mules...)

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lindahoyland.livejournal.com

Just curious, where did Tolkien mention the pointed ears?

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HoME Vol. V, in the Etymologies:
LAS¹- *lassê leaf: [...] Some think this is related to [LAS² - listen] and lassê 'ear'. The Quendian ears were more pointed and leaf-shaped than [?human].

and in a letter to Houghton Mifflin, concerning what hobbits look like:
I picture a fairly human figure [...]: fattish in the stomach, shortish in the leg. A round, jovial face; ears only slightly pointed and 'elvish'; hair short and curling (brown).
(Letter 27; emphasis mine) Since he describes the ears of Hobbit on the terms of pointed Elvish (not elfin!) ears, we can assume that he meant for Elvish ears to be pointed.

YMMV on the validity of such statements (and of supplementary canon in general), but if you want it, it's there. ^^

Edited Date: 2013-06-03 02:45 pm (UTC)

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lindahoyland.livejournal.com

Many thanks.

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You're perfectly welcome!

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For me the inhuman thing about the elves isn't the ears but the extremely long life span.

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Yes, I concur. That's the primary reason I suggested same genus / different species. I'd do the same with Dwarves. Also, the seperate creation stories for the three races. However I'd put Halflings down as Homo Sapiens... they seem to be just a different phenotype, with a long life expectancy.

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Eh, but even in-universe, we can question whether the "creation story" is true or just Stuff Them Elves (Or Valar) Made Up At Some Point. Even ye olde professor knew that mythology=/=fact. Especially when he made up the mythology himself. ;)

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Yes, and I'd absolutely understand if that featured more prominently in such discussions (or comments thereto).

Tolkien explains it as some sort of spiritual difference, which I suppose one has to believe (or not). But even scientifically speaking, I'm sure one could make some shit up, e.g. ascribing to them some sort of (recessive) genetic lay-out that gives them "better" (and ongoing) cell renewal, making them less susceptible to illness and also keeping their bodies from breaking down eventually. Heck, there are weirder mutations in fiction that we accept as (in-story) truth...

And hey, look at the average life-spans of different groups in history. Compared to the ancient Romans, we're practically immortal, too! (And yes, I know that for an average life expectancy of 30 years, that means that there's a living 60-year-old for every dead infant, of which there were a lot. But even if it just means that more people reach old age, it might well look like special hardiness/longevity from the outside. And that's just using better nutrition, hygiene and medicine!)

Edited Date: 2013-06-03 10:39 am (UTC)

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Well, ok.
But there IS a difference between 30 vs. 90 and 90 vs. a few thousand years.

But you're right of course: You COULD explain that, no doubt.

Still - and please keep in mind that I'm very far from being a Tolkien-expert OR a biologist - if their cells (and consequently their genes) differ in something that's THAT profound ... are they still human?

On a purely philosophical (and probably psychological) note I'd say: no, they aren't. But I suppose that wasn't the question in the first place.

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if their cells (and consequently their genes) differ in something that's THAT profound ... are they still human?

That actually is the question. :)

Biologically, since they can interbreed succesfully (and their offspring can again breed - not the way you'd get it if you were to cross a horse and a donkey (both of the Genus equus, but different species), which would result in a mule, which cannot produce offspring - nor the way you'd get with ligers or tigons (offspring of a tiger/lion union - parents are both of Genus panthera, but different species) where females are fertile, but males are infertile -- there are examples of both male and female "Half-Elves" producing offspring).
Which is why

cowboy_r's suggestion - same genus, different species, homo sapiens and *homo eldarensis - very likely doesn't apply; it's got to be the same species (albeit different subspecies): homo sapiens sapiens and *homo sapiens eldarensis, if you want.

Philosophically/psychologically, however, they're extremely different indeed, and if you say that humanity is defined by (for instance) memento mori, then no, they are not "human". That is probably what Tolkien meant by "spiritual". But then, people come from vastly different cultures (and manage to bridge the gap more or less succesfully) all the time. ^^

Edited Date: 2013-06-03 11:43 am (UTC)

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Ah, yes. The 'breeding-question' *G* Well, that IS a strong point in favour of humanity.

As to cultural differences - I'm sincerely glad they could bridge those! I'd miss Elrond :) He's one of my favourite characters.

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Oh, and one question: those half-elves are allowed to choose their path of life, aren't they? Does that involve choosing if they have a human live span?
If so ... the whole concept of elvish life expectancy doesn't have anything to do with cells at all, does it?
It would point to the purely spiritual difference that Tolkien mentioned.

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No, they normally aren't; Elrond and Elros are just lucky because their mom and dad happened to prance into Valinor with a Silmaril, which not only got 'em off the death sentence for trespassing, but also got them special divine intervention so they (and their sons) could choose whether to be mortal or not.
(Elros, Elrond's twin brother, chose mortality; the others chose immortality.) Other than by divine intervention, half-Elven defaults to mortal:
Now all those who have the blood of mortal Men, in whatever part, great or small, are mortal (emphasis mine), unless other doom be granted to them; but in this matter the power of doom is given to me. This is my decree: to Eärendel and to Elwing and to their sons shall be given leave to each to choose freely under which kindred they shall be judged.
(HoME Vol. V)

And when gods interfere, all discussions about genes and biology are useless anyway. ;)

Edited Date: 2013-06-03 12:24 pm (UTC)

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I see.
The quote reminds me of 'The game master is ALWAYS right!' *G*

Anyway: I love divine interventions in fantasy. They make good stories, mostly.
In one of our games we had a trickster-god, once. That one made a point of always turning up completely unexpected and without any reason whatsoever.
Deus-ex-machina per definition. *G* Was a lot of fun, that one ...

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That's what it boils down to, yep! (Although to be fair the person speaking isn't Tolkien, but Námo Mandos, i.e. the god (yes, fellow Tolkienists, I'm simplifying, OK?) responsible for judging the dead (and keeping the spirits of dead Elves, but not dead mortals. So he'd know! Hopefully!) XD

We had a game like that, too. It was awesome. Ah, good times!

Edited Date: 2013-06-03 01:33 pm (UTC)

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I actually had an idea for a story based around that kind of difference... that "Elves" were a society of biotechnically advanced humans who had traveled in time. They had cell-repair technologies to keep their bodies immorbid, they had good nutrition and didn't work much with their bodies, so they were tall and slender, and so just looked different, graceful and elegant, to "humans" with short lives, who worked for a living and didn't have the nutrition required to grow all that tall.

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